The Power of NAJAC: Denice Schafer and Jon Topp

[Uncle Marv]
Hello friends, Uncle Marv here with another Unfamous Podcast, a show where I have conversations with friends, family, and almost famous people. Today I am continuing my interviews from the NAJAC reunion in Bloomington, Indiana earlier in August. And today I've got two folks that we're going to be talking about how NAJAC and Junior Achievement affected both their professional and personal lives.

And our first guest is Schafer, officially Denice Schafer, and she has been a dedicated professional with over 38 years of experience in Junior Achievement. And her journey, of course, began with Junior Achievement as a delegate in 1979 and has culminated into her latest recent appointment as Vice President of Human Resources and Volunteer Engagement at Junior Achievement of North Central Ohio. And yes, folks, that is the area that if you know my wife Kim, she's kind of from that area.

I don't know, maybe about half an hour apart, but that's not how we met. Anyway, Denice has not only made significant contributions to JA, but she's been a personal friend of mine for, I think, more than 30 years. And I've been able to personally witness her story and the career trajectory that JA has had on her personal and professional life.

And then next is Jon Topp, a financial expert with a unique connection to NAJAC. We seem to know him as the questionnaire. Jon's involvement with NAJAC led him to compete in the JA Bowl.

And for those that don't know, that is a trivia contest that gained a lot of popularity in the 80s. Jon would later oversee that competition for 11 years while he was on staff. And then beyond his professional accomplishments in financial analysis and data visualization, you're going to hear his personal story of finding support within the NAJAC community during a very challenging time in his life.

That is going to highlight the deep bonds that are formed, well, were formed through this NAJAC conference. Now, I need to make one note. Many of my friends have accepted nicknames that I've given them over the years.

Most of you might remember McGyver, Marky Mark, Happy Hensler. Those are all friends that I have met at NAJAC. McGyver, of course, is Jim Gallo, a personal close friend of mine, and the best man at my wedding.

We both worked for Junior Achievement. You're going to hear me refer to Jon in this interview as Topper. And I've been calling him Topper for many years, but that wasn't his nickname.

I've just been saying his name incorrectly all this time. His correct name is Jon Topp. So I want to do a special shout out to Jon who did not correct me one time during the interview.

But let's get on with it, folks. Up next, my conversations with Schafer and Topper. And you'll hear their thoughts and insights on the power of lifelong connections, how JA and NAJAC shaped both their professional and personal lives.

Hello, friends. Uncle Marv here with another friendly interview at our JA-NAJAC reunion in Bloomington, Indiana, a name that you have heard on the show before. I called her Schafer, but she is officially Denice Schafer of Ohio.

Denice, how are you? Hi, Uncle Marv. So here we are, once again, hanging out.

How have things been?

[Denice Shafer]
It has been a wonderful couple of days. We've got 33, I think, former NAJAC staff members here in attendance. And while we have some planned activities, I think the most fun is the one-on-one conversations that you have with people that some of them I haven't seen in decades.

But we still have something in common, and we're all here because of our involvement with NAJAC.

[Uncle Marv]
Yeah, so I've had a couple of interviews and then a couple of, you know, sidebar chats about the whole idea of not seeing people for years at a time but being able to pick up right where you left off. Much different than somebody that you maybe went to school with or, you know, grew up with in a sense that, yes, you have those lifelong childhood friends that, you know, you played with on the streets, but it almost feels the same when you talk about our staff experiences.

[Denice Shafer]
I think of the people that are here, the people that worked at NAJAC all those years with me, are really like an extended family. They're fun to go visit. I visited you when I was taking trips down to Florida, and we do, we just can pick up and friendships continue.

It's wonderful.

[Uncle Marv]
So for somebody that might be listening for the first time, hearing you, hearing about our experiences with Junior Achievement, let's start with the fact that you were a delegate at the National Conference a couple of years before me?

[Denice Shafer]
I was, 1979 to 82. So I was able to go as a delegate for four years. I was part of the Toledo, Ohio Junior Achievement area.

Yes. So I have, you know, have some JA friends from Toledo, but that's what started my Junior Achievement. I had a neighbor who was a JA company program advisor.

And the summer before my freshman year in high school, he came down and we were talking. He goes, what do you, on Tuesday nights, you're going to come with me to Junior Achievement. And he worked for Chrysler Plastics.

And I was part of his JA company for four years.

[Uncle Marv]
Wow. So interesting. I don't think I knew that about you.

It is very interesting to hear some of the ways that each of us got into Junior Achievement. Mine was by accident, to be honest. I heard about an opportunity to make some money after school and I had that night free and I just went on my own.

A lot of people I have heard were either encouraged or, in your case, it sounds like you were kind of recruited.

[Denice Shafer]
Well, I attended my first JA meeting on a Tuesday night in September and a boy named Sean put his name tag on my coat. So when I got home that night, I found his name tag. I didn't know who Sean was.

So I went back the next week to figure out who Sean was. So that started 38, well, like a 46 year involvement in my life with JA.

[Uncle Marv]
So let me ask the natural progression of you were a delegate, obviously, then you got asked to come back as staff. What was that like?

[Denice Shafer]
Wonderful. I came back at the heyday when Junior Achievement Conference had about over 3,000 students coming. My first assignment on NAJAC staff was to run an info table in one of the dorms.

Briscoe? I was at McNutt. McNutt.

I was at McNutt info table. But think 3,000 kids on campus and we didn't have cell phones or internet or any of that kind of thing to communicate. So when they needed to know, you know, where do we need to go next?

Or what, where's this happening? They would come to our information table and we would help keep everybody on time and answering questions.

[Uncle Marv]
Yeah, monumental task that, wow, thinking about even doing that today with technology sometimes would be monumental. Even with an app. A lot of conferences I go to now there's an app.

[Denice Shafer]
We didn't have any of that back with our conferences. So the first couple of years on NAJAC staff, I did the information table and then I moved up to the main office where we were just the hub of everything that was happening in the conference. One year I got to work with programs and that's the year that you and Patty and I were supervisors together and that was a lot of fun.

[Uncle Marv]
And we were special because we had the walkie talkies.

[Denice Shafer]
We did. And we, when we walked and really, you know what, that was the first year I got to or had to wear the blue checks because info table staff in the main office, you know, we wore normal clothes, but all of the volunteers and staff that worked with the students wore blue checks.

[Uncle Marv]
That is right.

[Denice Shafer]
All week long.

[Uncle Marv]
Wow. Very interesting. Now, I'm sure you and I have talked about this, you know, off air, but what was it that actually got you to work for Junior Achievement?

[Denice Shafer]
I attended college and majored in human resources because my junior year in high school, I was VP of human resources for my JA company. So that led me to what my degree was. The reason I ended up with Junior Achievement is my senior year, my goal of college was to find a job in a large corporation in human resources.

And I went to the Toledo JA office and met with Jack Kozakowski, who was my program manager. And then he was the president in Toledo. But I wanted to ask him to be a reference for me because I started my job hunt.

And we talked for about an hour. And before I knew it, he had scheduled an interview with me with the president in the Akron, Ohio office. So Jack Kozakowski was instrumental in talking me into even considering a career with Junior Achievement.

And it's been 38 years.

[Uncle Marv]
And you finally now, as I understand it, for the first time have a title that represents the degree that you got, correct?

[Denice Shafer]
I do. I've had, you know, gone from being a program manager to a marketing director to an area president to a VP of programs. And in my Junior Achievement area, we needed some human resource help.

So as of July 1st, I am officially vice president of human resources and volunteer engagement.

[Uncle Marv]
There you go. So you're part of the slide that Ed showed where you're now part of the 70% that actually are working in the degree field that they had in school. So Denice, let me ask you the similar question that I've been asking others in terms of coming back to these reunions.

Let me just ask you simply, what is it that stands out as the reason you keep coming back? And then after that, what is the one takeaway that you think you'll have from this one in particular?

[Denice Shafer]
I come back because of friendships. I just like reconnecting and having some fun. So that's why I come back.

And the second part is what my takeaway? Yeah.

[Uncle Marv]
Because each one of these, you kind of leave thinking something different and feeling something different. Do you have that yet so far?

[Denice Shafer]
I do. I think as time progresses and we get further and further away from when NAJEC ended, we are aging. And because of my continued involvement working with Junior Achievement, my conversations here, I try to help bring some knowledge on what JA is doing today.

Because there are some wonderful things, awesome things that we are doing to help educate young people. It's just different than when the National Conference was going on and NAJEC was going on.

[Uncle Marv]
Yeah, that's probably the one thing that we've never really talked about that much. The reason that we do these is because our conference doesn't exist anymore. But that doesn't mean that Junior Achievement has stopped doing what they do.

It's just different. So there is a conference. It's just not the big, massive conference that we remember here at IU.

From the perspective of you as a staff member, I know that nostalgia is great to some degree, but what is positive in your mind with what's happening with JA right now?

[Denice Shafer]
I think our direction is listening to our communities and what the community needs are. So it's not top down saying these are JA programs, this is what you need to implement. We have so many opportunities that we need to listen to what's the needs of our communities.

And I can tell you in my area, I live in Ohio, there's a new mandate for financial literacy education for high school graduation. So that has now become our largest program that we're impacting students because we're helping schools meet a need with our financial literacy semester long course. I hear in my communities that career exploration and work readiness is key as communities are trying to get the word out that there are jobs and opportunities locally that students don't need to go elsewhere, right?

Trying to keep our young people. So a JA program called JA Inspire has grown where many JA areas are running these career exploration fairs with local companies. So it's that focus on what does the community need and then how can JA help?

[Uncle Marv]
Sounds great. And I do need to say thank you. There are fewer of us that we remember still working for JA and it's great to know that there's still a place for everybody.

There's still progress being made and what got us started down this path. A lot of us took what we learned in JA and parlayed that into businesses or careers and stuff. You are still in the trenches fighting the fight and I appreciate that.

So thank you.

[Denice Shafer]
We still need volunteers. So whether you're an alumni of Junior Achievement or just see a need for entrepreneurship education or work readiness, financial literacy, your local JA area could use good role models for students.

[Uncle Marv]
All right. And with that, I will put some links in the show notes folks for you guys to go and check out JA and find resources in your local area to volunteer. If you're in a position to donate, donate.

If you have any time that you could give outside of volunteering, maybe helping out the local office, being on the board, they need you out there. So I'll have those links. Chafer, I know that we've got another thing we need to get ready for.

So I'll let you go. Thank you for stopping by and hanging out. Wonderful to see you this week.

All right. We'll see you. Bye.

Hello, friends. Zachary Marve back here with another friend while we're in Bloomington at the NAJAC reunion. And we just finished the JA Bowl reunion edition.

And I've got the person that we have come to recognize as the questionnaire, I guess. Jon Topper is joining me. Jon, how are you?

Good. Good to be here. So I guess we'll start there in talking about when you come back and do these things.

How does it feel to still be doing the JA Bowl?

[Jon Topp]
Last reunion, the one five years ago, it was actually Audrey's idea that we should replay the bowl. So we pulled the questions together, wrote some new ones. And it occurred to me that we really had the right people working on the bowl all this time, because it's only those kind of people who would do this again, just for a handful of reunion people.

[Uncle Marv]
All right. Now, for those that don't know, the JA Bowl is basically our version of the trivia contest, the College Bowl, the College Bowl. And we've got teams on stage with the timer and the buzzers.

And some questions are easy, some questions are hard. We've got some smart people in our group.

[Jon Topp]
We do.

[Uncle Marv]
All right. Let's now go back and talk about how this all got started for you. Your introduction to Junior Achievement and NAJAC.

[Jon Topp]
I actually heard of NAJAC before I heard of JA. Really? Yeah, I ran, I had met somebody who told me about it.

And he introduced me to a friend. It would have been before my sophomore year. But JA didn't recruit sophomores at my high school.

And I didn't put enough into it to pursue it. So when they came junior year, I got involved. I was able to go to the conference as a junior.

And then in Grand Rapids, only the seniors could go to NAJAC if they were competing. Otherwise, the program wanted underclassmen who would bring the NAJAC feeling back into the program and spread it to the other students. So senior year, I competed in VP Manufacturing at the end of the year.

But we also had a regional conference, it was called JAMCO, in Bowling Green, Ohio. And I competed in a different contest, which was JA Jeopardy. So just the same kinds of questions, only it was a Jeopardy format.

And I won that. So based on winning that, part of the award was to get to go to NAJAC and compete at the national conference in April.

[Uncle Marv]
Wow. It is very interesting hearing everybody's journey on how they got there. I got here by accident.

There was literally an extra space available. I had one president of the year. Our company had one company of the year.

But at the time, they only sent two people from our office. And there was a gentleman, gentleman, a kid at the time, who was more involved with junior achievement than I was. And the other person that had been involved wasn't available to go.

So because I won, they're like, hey, you want to go? I'm like, sure. It just was very interesting to hear the stories.

So now let me ask you, in terms of showing up here as a delegate, obviously, the fact that you had heard about it, you participated, what was the drive to come back? On staff? Well, both.

You could only come one year as a senior, right?

[Jon Topp]
No, I came as a junior, didn't compete at all. And then as a senior, I competed both in manufacturing and in the J-Bowl. Okay.

And then I assume you got asked to come back on staff?

[Uncle Marv]
Yeah.

[Jon Topp]
Then I applied to be back on staff. I was in program groups for two years. And then after the second year, I wasn't invited back, which was probably on par with my fit with program groups.

And I wrote Lou Ursone saying, I think I would be really good on J-Bowl. And at the same time, there was some turnover in the J-Bowl staff. So they had openings, so I was able to join them.

And that's the only thing I did for the next 11 years.

[Uncle Marv]
I was going to ask, because I think that's the only thing I know that you did there.

[Jon Topp]
Right. And that's all I need to be known for.

[Uncle Marv]
Oh, my goodness gracious. So in terms of personal life, was there anything that junior achievement kind of drove you to do or that you can look back and point and say, this happened because of J.A. and NAJAC?

[Jon Topp]
I would say I was always college bound, had good high school education, good family. So that direction was pretty well set. But I don't really know what I would have pursued had it not been for J.A. So I went to Calvin College for two years, and then I transferred to the University of Michigan to their business program and was in the first Master of Accounting program that Michigan had. And had it not been for J.A., I don't know that I would have gone towards business or fallen into it.

[Uncle Marv]
Interesting. Very nice. Now, one of the things that we've talked about here is the fact that NAJAC has been a family for all of us, whether it's extended or not.

But being in, I guess, competitions was your department, you weren't really in tune with all of the other parts of the conference. So how did you maintain closeness with everybody? Because from what I can tell, you're one of the beloved people here.

That's nice to hear.

[Jon Topp]
There were enough people in competitions where we had our family ourselves, but it wasn't really restricted just to that group. But the closest connections are in the competitions group. But it goes broader than that.

[Uncle Marv]
Okay. So in terms of coming back all these years, is there anything that stands out for you in terms of either a memory or something that you would miss otherwise if you didn't attend?

[Jon Topp]
It's just great being around these people because these are family. These are the people I trust most in life. These are people who have shown up for me when I needed it.

I proposed to my wife here at the Indiana Memorial Union at the end of one of the conferences. And we got married. We had kids.

The kids were born 10 weeks premature, had a lot of medical difficulties the first year. And when the twins were 11 months old, my wife died. Her aorta broke.

And it was, I don't know, maybe a dozen people from NAJEC that came to her funeral and helped support me through all that. So for instance, Helene went to her boss and said, I need to go to Columbus for a funeral this weekend. And he said, well, let me look at your PTO.

And she said, no, you don't understand. I need to go to Columbus for a funeral this weekend. Wow.

[Uncle Marv]
I did not know that.

[Jon Topp]
No, it's not. Well, everyone who's there who knows it.

[Uncle Marv]
Right, right.

[Jon Topp]
Yeah. I'm not sure how many people outside competitions know that. Well, a lot more are going to know it now.

[Uncle Marv]
But what you just said, I mean, first of all, condolences. And I mean, just wow. But I think that sentiment has started to show throughout the years that the people that we hold closest to us seems to have been these people that we went to this conference with.

And it is so hard to explain to people who did not attend.

[Jon Topp]
Right. And you can jump into conversations with any of these people like you had just talked to them last week. And unfortunately, it's been a few too many years, but it just all comes together so easily again.

[Uncle Marv]
Yeah. Those people that came to your funeral and stuff, thank you to them. I mean, we don't have to go into any more details, but I just knowing that that happened to you.

I mean, I know of people that have had situations happen. I've had times where I've reached out to people, not my closest friends locally, but to JA folks to say, hey, I need some help. And they've been right there.

[Jon Topp]
Yeah. I had a real good friend at the time who said, well, let's give Jon some time to be alone. Well, he was projecting, but all the NACJC friends, they knew better than that.

So they all came over to the house anyway, because they wanted to spend time with me and I wanted to spend time with them. So I'm glad that they didn't listen to that one friend of mine.

[Uncle Marv]
All right. So normally I like to try to ask the question about what's the one takeaway that you have from these conferences, but I mean, it sounds like you don't even need to say it. I know what it is.

[Jon Topp]
Yeah. But then another thing I'll add is we all come from different areas. A lot of us are in different fields and lines of work.

It was always neat to see everyone come together and do this conference so well. It's hard to picture this many people doing something so well in a lot of other areas, even work. So the talent that we have here is just amazing.

[Uncle Marv]
I mean, you can see that in this weekend alone, where one of our leaders that had always made things happen for us wasn't here. Right. But everybody knew when and where to step up and just make things happen.

And that's what we've done every year.

[Jon Topp]
Right. Even when I've been on vacations with subsets of these people, things just come together. No one's being left out.

Everyone's being included. Everyone's doing what they want to do because they all want to be with each other.

[Uncle Marv]
Yeah. Wow. Well, let me ask this before we go, because somebody's probably asking me in my head, you know, how are the twins doing?

The twins are fine.

[Jon Topp]
They were born at three pounds, six ounces and two pounds, eight ounces. The shorter one is now six, three, and the taller one is six, five. Okay.

[Uncle Marv]
I know that well. I have a nephew that was born at two pounds, nine inches at 32 weeks, and he's bigger than me. Yeah.

Glad to hear that. Well, Jon, listen, I should have done this sooner. We have seen each other for years.

And this time I specifically sought you out to sit down and chat and thank you for doing that. And thank you for coming back all these years. Appreciate it.

Thanks, Marvin.